E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
MORNINGS WITH ADAM SHIRLEY, ABC CANBERRA
MONDAY, 1 AUGUST 2022 

SUBJECTS: Territory rights;

ADAM SHIRLEY, HOST: Today marks the start of a possible green light for this territory and the Northern Territory, to make its own laws and not be at the whim of a federal government, on whether those laws stand. And the test issue at hand, which is very real for a lot of people, is voluntary assisted dying. Alicia Paine is the federal Labor MP for Canberra who has co-sponsored a private member's bill that will, if passed through both Houses of Parliament, allow the ACT and the Northern Territory, to make laws without that threat of federal intervention, which is a constant as it stands now. Alicia Payne, a very good morning. Thank you for making time.

ALICIA PAYNE MP, MEMBER FOR CANBERRA: Good morning, Adam. Thanks for having me

SHIRLEY: A pivotal day in lots of ways. Given all the talk, given all the prep, what is your overriding emotion today, as you prepare to introduce this bill?

PAYNE: Yes, well, I am optimistic that this is the day that we will finally get this done. But you know, a little bit of nerves as well. There have been many attempts in the parliament before to overturn this Andrews legislation that have failed. Often by a very small margin. But most of the conversations that myself and my colleagues have been having with members across the parliament have been positive. And we're really hopeful that the federal parliament will stand with us and give us our our rights back today.

SHIRLEY: You say you're quietly confident, albeit nervous, how certain are you that the bill will pass the lower house at least?

PAYNE: Look, I don't want to sound too confident, just because people will still beconsidering what they're going to do. I am optimistic. As I say, the vast majority of conversations that I've had with people, they are supportive of this. Because, as you said in your introduction Adam, this is about us having the right to have the debate on voluntary assisted dying. So there are members of the parliament who don't support voluntary assisted dying, but do support our right to have the debate. And and I think that's really the crux of this issue. When the Andrews Bill was introduced in 1996, passed in '97. It was in response to the Northern Territory being the first and only jurisdiction to legislate voluntary assisted dying. In the 25 years since then, all the states have passed legislation in that regard. And the only jurisdictions that haven't are the ACT and Northern Territory. So this is really about letting us have the same rights, equal democracy to other Australians and let us have that debate. So I'm really hopeful that most of our colleagues across the parliament, across party lines will support that.

SHIRLEY: To what degree have you tried to in your explanations, your lobbying with your federal MPs, tried to make this a split between the right to govern for oneself versus the right to voluntary assisted dying, because, given this is the issue, which has brought the principle on, it has generated a lot of emotion, a lot of split feelings within people.

PAYNE: I really do see the the objective of this bill, that Luke Gosling and I will move this morning, as about equal democratic rights. About letting us have that debate and voluntary assisted dying is an issue that there are really strong views held, obviously, on either side of that discussion. But this is about letting us have that debate like everyone else has. Because of the profound implications of that legislation, it is why we really should have the opportunity to have the debate in the ACT and the Northern Territory. So I would really stress that this is about the right to have the debate. So our discussions have focused on that, not so much on voluntary assisted dying itself.

SHIRLEY: What to some of your mates who are MPs. How do you respond when a couple of them at least would say to you, 'Alicia, I cannot back this in, I cannot stand for voluntary assisted dying?'

PAYNE: Well, I say to them that this is about allowing us to have the same rights to pass that legislation. And it is somewhat of an anomaly when every other state has passed it or had the discussion, and we can't just because of where we live. That is not probably the intended consequence of the Andrews legislation. It was about stopping the territories getting ahead of everyone else. So when people really have a strong view and they say that they don't want to support this because they don't support voluntary assisted dying. I respect their right to have that view and I don't, a lot of those people, you're not going to change their mind. But, as I say, I'm sort of buoyed by the fact that most people have been really supportive of this.

SHIRLEY: So how important in your mind was making it a conscience vote rather than binding fellow MPs to a party position?

PAYNE: Well, anything relating to voluntary assisted dying is a conscience vote for us. And there were discussions in the last term about, did we want to make this a binding vote in support of territory rights, and I was one of the people that advocated for that. However, there are people that have their strong views, and they're in the minority within our party. We decided it was better to progress the issue, and have this vote in a parliament that was likely to support it overall, rather than waste any more time trying to have that when this meant so much to people within our Caucus for it to be a conference.

SHIRLEY: In essence, you didn't want to box people in and force them to vote along party position. Is that the crux of it?

PAYNE: Well, as I say, some people have strongly held views around voluntary assisted dying and even allowing us the right to have that debate, even though everyone else has, as you know, in contradiction of that. And so within our party, it would have taken much longer to get to a point where we would have an agreement to a binding vote. However, there was an openness to allow this and I'm really thankful to our leadership and Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, who have allowed us to have this debate in the first sittings no less. Because that is that is really significant, actually, because it does require a government to allow the debate on a private member's bill, which is something I think many people don't understand.

SHIRLEY: We'll talk that timeframe, including the crucial Senate element of it too in a moment. A few key texts already in on 0467 922 66. Federal Member for Canberra, Labor's Alicia Payne is with us on ABC Canberra mornings. Adam Shirley along for the ride at 19 to nine too. Unpopular opinion says this unsigned citizen, "We're a territory, not a state. I'm indifferent to the assisted dying debate, but the reduced rights is what comes with being a territory". And to my question about the conscience vote element of this. Warren says "Adam, I can't get my head around the conscience vote. Those MPs are not there to give their personal view. They are there to reflect the view of the people they represent and everyone knows the majority favor voluntary assisted dying". Here is an unsigned citizen saying: "Those opposing voluntary assisted dying are essentially saying that they, because of their own set of beliefs have the authority to determine how others who don't share those beliefs may or may not live or die". As is always the case on this issue. Emotion is strong, passion is high. I welcome yours, if you want to share it on one 1300 681 666. So to the other house, which is so important, Alicia Payne, the numbers are likely to be there in the House of Reps, but how long do you believe it will take to pass the Senate?

PAYNE: I really don't know Adam. I know that my Senate colleagues Katie Gallagher and Malarndirri McCarthy and also Senator David Pocock, have been advocating on this issue with the Senate colleagues. I know that Senator Simon Birmingham has been public in his support.

SHIRLEY: Andrew Bragg as well, I think, from the Liberals.

PAYNE: Correct. Correct. So I'm hopeful that that will help very much on the Coalition side. We've had other crossbenchers say they support it. The Greens support it. I just hope that this time it has the momentum it needs and of course, it was very close the last time this went through the Senate, it lost by two votes. One of those votes was Senator Zed Seselja, who is no longer in the parliament and been replaced by David Pocock, who is supportive of this. So I think there has been that hopefully will get it over the line.

SHIRLEY: Have you had a word or three to the to Jacqui Lambie Network senators as well? Because their vote shapes as crucial in the Senate.

PAYNE: I haven't personally because the Senate side are doing that. But I do think that this is the sort of issue that is about people's rights to have have the debate. And I think that that is something that I would think is very consistent with the things that Senator Lambie and Senator Tyrrell stand for.

SHIRLEY: So several groups, including the Canberra and Goulburn Catholic Archdiocese, the Australian Christian Lobby have contacted you and other MPs to try and influence the way people vote on this. How fair and reasonable is their opposition to what you're attempting to do Alicia Payne?

PAYNE: Well, again, I respect their right to not support voluntary assisted dying and their beliefs around that, of course. But as I say, I do feel, this bill that Luke and I are moving is about allowing us to have the debates within our jurisdictions. And so I think it is clouding it to make out like this. Because our bill will not mean that the ACT or the Northern Territory get voluntary assisted dying necessarily. This is about letting us have the debates.

SHIRLEY: You're probably clear on the fact though that the current ACT Assembly, and Andrew Barr has actually prominently advocated for this for this bill and a bill like it so that it can move laws on voluntary assisted dying. So it's probably a touch disingenuous to say it won't lead to that, am I right?

PAYNE: Well, that is correct. The ACT Government have advocated very hard on this issue. But if this bill was passed by the Federal Parliament, there's still a lot of work to do in the ACT and a consultation period around anything that would happen. So it's not like this will pass today and tomorrow the ACT will move legislation for voluntary assisted dying. It will be a consultative process with the Canberra community.

SHIRLEY: Granted, but you know that the minority Labor-Greens Government here, that's in place till 2024, is likely to move fairly rapidly on this, should these bills pass the House Reps and the Senate?

PAYNE: Well, that's correct. And I guess what I would say, those who don't support voluntary assisted dying, the timefor that lobbying is in that in that part of debate. And that's a very important part of that debate, form either side to make their views heard then. But this is about just letting us have the same rights. And one of the texts you read out before was about the unpopular view one about the fact that living in a territory means we have different rights. It is in the Constitution that the Federal Parliament can overturn decisions made by territories, but at the moment, this particular Andrews Bill is the only example of that. Where we're prevented from actually debating something. And I really do think it has changed since 25 years ago, the mood has changed. When that legislation was moved to stop the Northern Territory doing something that now all states have done. So I do feel it's time, it's well past time for us to have this discussion in the ACT and Northern Territory,

SHIRLEY: You'll be doing so and taking action on it by introducing this bill this morning. In closing for now, and this is an interesting, I guess proposition which I've couched before. But when it comes to rights to govern, what are, Alicia Payne, other rights or laws, the ACT, in Mike's words, what other laws are the is the ACT missing out on besides voluntary assisted dying? Do you have a position on that, other things that you would like the territories to be able to govern themselves on?

PAYNE: Well, as I say, at the moment, this is the main thing where the federal parliament has stepped in to overturn a law in territories and there are many other areas they can do that within the Constitution, going down to the powers that the federal government has versus state and territory governments. And I think that's a longer term question and to really give us equal rights would really require referendums and constitutional change. And that, as we know, is just such a long process. And frankly, for us the priority is the Uluru statement from the heart and getting the voice to Parliament enshrined in the Constitution. A republic, I think, would be the thing many people would like to see discussed as a change to our Constitution next. These are important issues. But if we can move this piece of legislation for now, I think, this would restore a really important right to the territory and it would be a brave government, federal government, federal parliament in future that would would try to impinge on those rights again.

SHIRLEY: Alicia Payne, the proof will be in the debate and then the vote ultimately, both in the House of Reps and then the Senate. Thank you for your time on what is a pretty important day for the ACT and the Northern Territory particularly.

PAYNE: Thank you very Adam.